What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure?

On the other hand, the violin solo iat the end of the aria often gets
less than prime treatment on recordings. (The Gedda Angel/EMI recital
disc of the 1960's being the most heinous example I can come up with
off the top of my head...)

Perhaps producerd are reluctant to ask their tenors to bag another 'C'
once they've got a good vocal take, and are willing to take their lumps
for less-than-stellar instrumental playing.
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

I studied this aria (20 years ago), though I never sang the role. And
I think a lot of tenors would agree with you that it's an easier C
than some of the others.

For a some of us tenors, C is actually an easier note to sing that B
flat. It's sort of "in the clear". It's hard to pinpoint, but I
think the approach to the note is well set-up for success. The notes
preceding the C are all grouped at the bottom of the passaggio (or
"break") in the tenor voice. It's a clean leap from the middle voice
into the very top. The C in Che Gelida is an ascent through the
passagio and goes to the C from an A flat. It isn't that hard, but
it's technically quite different. A flat needs some "cover" no matter
when it is sung, because the singer is navigating the upper end of the
passaggio. A C needs some cover too, but that is for reasons of tone
quality, consistency and breath, rather than the tricky passaggio
navigation.

In terms of approach, I also like singing the word "divine" with it's
nice long iiiiiii vowels before zooming up to the C. But different
singers have different preferences. For me, the iiii vowels are very
easier to feel lots of head voice with, which helps "remind" me of
nice, shiny, pure head sound needed for the C. On a C, if the head
sound isn't really strong, I can chest and mix all I like, but it's
gonna come out ugly, and probably crack. So I like to be thinking
very heady right before the C, and those vowels make it eeeeeasier.

Again, in Che Gelida, the vowel is not so gracious. A closed "e"
vowel in Italian doesn't feel so resonant in the head, it feels more
throaty (that's personal, not all singers feel that way). It helps
that it is preceded by "a" ("stanza, la"), which is the great all
purpose Italian vowel for getting my technical bearings. Above all,
in the approach to Rodolfo's big C, the trick for me is not to
exaggerate anything, not to try to modify or manipulate anything, but
simply keep the tone focused, "honest", and sing the damn notes. The
C in Salut Demeure doesn't require so much caution or "planning"
because it is so well set up.

The real test is how to handle singing the entire role in performance,
rather than the one aria. I have sung Rodolfo (with an itty bitty
amateur company here in NYC), but never Faust. Overall, Faust seems
much more intimidating, pretty high note notwithstanding. And I KNOW
I would go to pieces under the pressure of performing either part in a
professional venue. Corelli felt the pressure too, but he certainly
didn't go to pieces. Even when he was miserable with stress and
nerves, that voice would soar out of him.

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 06:21:18 -0500, martyi.RemoveThis@webtv.net (shortspark)
wrote:

>I mean, why does every tenor I hear sing this note sing it so
>wonderfully? I've not heard a bad one yet. Other high Cs seem to be
>hit or miss such as when it is attempted in the "Pira"; ditto Che gelida
>manina. But tenors who sing the Faust aria nail this particular note
>dead on and it always sounds great.
>
>Corelli's studio recording may leave out a bit of style overall but his
>high C in this aria pins your ears back and sounds more glorious than
>usual, even for him. Pavarotti's high note here is just beautiful as it
>opens and blooms forth and of course Bjorling's rendition is simply
>awesome. Kraus and Gedda's note here are nearly in the same class. Not
>to mention the almost unbelievable diminuendo on the note that DiStefano
>gave us.
>
>I could go on with other examples (even from many of today's tenors) but
>it seems there something about this high C that allows everyone who
>sings it to sing it well, and, unlike many other famous high Cs, they do
>not seem to transpose it down very often. Does anyone know what that
>special thing about this note might be?
>
>shortspark
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

Thanks all and especially Mr. Grove who has given a thorough and first
hand account (via his own experience) of the technical singing aspects
and processes involved. Us non singers take this stuff for granted!

It is quite clear then that this particular note is "set up" better than
many others and thus may simply be easier to hit properly for most
singers.

shortspark
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

Sergio da Silva wrote:
> Actually to sing it right is difficult, listen to Thill's recording, he gets
> it..belting out does not do it for me...It is a declaration of love not a
> declaration of war,,,

Unless, of course, the production is of the "innovative" sort,
depicting Faust as having premonitions of a really "rocky" marriage or
affair. Then, combining the two sorts of declaration, ie, love and war,
might work.... or not.

>so many get it wrong although they hit the high C....

That's why only several tenors' renditions have reached the "Legendary"
mark.

LT

> "shortspark" wrote in message
>
> >I mean, why does every tenor I hear sing this note sing it so
> > wonderfully? I've not heard a bad one yet. Other high Cs seem to be
> > hit or miss such as when it is attempted in the "Pira"; ditto Che gelida
> > manina. But tenors who sing the Faust aria nail this particular note
> > dead on and it always sounds great.
> >
> > Corelli's studio recording may leave out a bit of style overall but his
> > high C in this aria pins your ears back and sounds more glorious than
> > usual, even for him. Pavarotti's high note here is just beautiful as it
> > opens and blooms forth and of course Bjorling's rendition is simply
> > awesome. Kraus and Gedda's note here are nearly in the same class. Not
> > to mention the almost unbelievable diminuendo on the note that DiStefano
> > gave us.
> >
> > I could go on with other examples (even from many of today's tenors) but
> > it seems there something about this high C that allows everyone who
> > sings it to sing it well, and, unlike many other famous high Cs, they do
> > not seem to transpose it down very often. Does anyone know what that
> > special thing about this note might be?
> >
> > shortspark
> >
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

Actually to sing it right is difficult, listen to Thill's recording, he gets
it..belting out does not do it for me...It is a declaration of love not a
declaration of war,,,so many get it wrong although they hit the high C....
"shortspark" wrote in message

>I mean, why does every tenor I hear sing this note sing it so
> wonderfully? I've not heard a bad one yet. Other high Cs seem to be
> hit or miss such as when it is attempted in the "Pira"; ditto Che gelida
> manina. But tenors who sing the Faust aria nail this particular note
> dead on and it always sounds great.
>
> Corelli's studio recording may leave out a bit of style overall but his
> high C in this aria pins your ears back and sounds more glorious than
> usual, even for him. Pavarotti's high note here is just beautiful as it
> opens and blooms forth and of course Bjorling's rendition is simply
> awesome. Kraus and Gedda's note here are nearly in the same class. Not
> to mention the almost unbelievable diminuendo on the note that DiStefano
> gave us.
>
> I could go on with other examples (even from many of today's tenors) but
> it seems there something about this high C that allows everyone who
> sings it to sing it well, and, unlike many other famous high Cs, they do
> not seem to transpose it down very often. Does anyone know what that
> special thing about this note might be?
>
> shortspark
>
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

Suggest no singer who has one would allow it to not be perfect in public. To
do one badly would carry bad weight and despite the near perfect
performance otherwise, a miss-step on the Panicle note would be poor form.
Has a lot of ego here.

Bill Houdek
bhoudek.TakeThisOut@swbell.net
"shortspark" wrote in message

>I mean, why does every tenor I hear sing this note sing it so
> wonderfully? I've not heard a bad one yet. Other high Cs seem to be
> hit or miss such as when it is attempted in the "Pira"; ditto Che gelida
> manina. But tenors who sing the Faust aria nail this particular note
> dead on and it always sounds great.
>
> Corelli's studio recording may leave out a bit of style overall but his
> high C in this aria pins your ears back and sounds more glorious than
> usual, even for him. Pavarotti's high note here is just beautiful as it
> opens and blooms forth and of course Bjorling's rendition is simply
> awesome. Kraus and Gedda's note here are nearly in the same class. Not
> to mention the almost unbelievable diminuendo on the note that DiStefano
> gave us.
>
> I could go on with other examples (even from many of today's tenors) but
> it seems there something about this high C that allows everyone who
> sings it to sing it well, and, unlike many other famous high Cs, they do
> not seem to transpose it down very often. Does anyone know what that
> special thing about this note might be?
>
> shortspark
>
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:08:39 -0500, martyi.TakeThisOut@webtv.net (shortspark)
wrote:

>Thanks all and especially Mr. Grove who has given a thorough and first
>hand account (via his own experience) of the technical singing aspects
>and processes involved. Us non singers take this stuff for granted!
>
>It is quite clear then that this particular note is "set up" better than
>many others and thus may simply be easier to hit properly for most
>singers.
>
>shortspark

Charlie Handelman just made an excellent podcast of 15 different
singers all doing "Amor ti vieta". It was fascinating. In terms of
"setting up" a high note, I consider the C in "Salut Demeure" more
kindly set-up than the A in "Amor ti vieta".

The fifteen tenors all sing it extremely well, and do not betray any
of the technical difficulties in the aria. But that is because they
are all very accomplished singers. "Amor ti vieta" is a text in
passagio navigation: you either know what exactly what you are doing,
or you strangle yourself, well before you get to the A at the end. And
if you don't approach the A correctly, you will strangle on your way
back down the scale from it.

But the role is for a more spinto or dramatic tenor than I would ever
be (strictly lyric). The aria isn't particularly low, but it may be
the case that it's easier to sing for someone more comfortable in
lower tenor rep. Loris, the tenor in Fedora, is not a "C" role.

Gorgeous aria. Very short. Bloody difficult!
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

shortspark wrote:
> I mean, why does every tenor I hear sing this note sing it so
> wonderfully? I've not heard a bad one yet. Other high Cs seem to be
> hit or miss such as when it is attempted in the "Pira"; ditto Che gelida
> manina. But tenors who sing the Faust aria nail this particular note
> dead on and it always sounds great.
>
> Corelli's studio recording may leave out a bit of style overall but his
> high C in this aria pins your ears back and sounds more glorious than
> usual, even for him. Pavarotti's high note here is just beautiful as it
> opens and blooms forth and of course Bjorling's rendition is simply
> awesome. Kraus and Gedda's note here are nearly in the same class. Not
> to mention the almost unbelievable diminuendo on the note that DiStefano
> gave us.
>
> I could go on with other examples (even from many of today's tenors) but
> it seems there something about this high C that allows everyone who
> sings it to sing it well, and, unlike many other famous high Cs, they do
> not seem to transpose it down very often. Does anyone know what that
> special thing about this note might be?
>
> shortspark
~~~~~~~~~~~
It may be significant that, unlike many other high C's, Faust's is part
of Gounod's text and is neither an interpolation nor optional. The
melody is designed to crest on that note and Di Stefano has added a
superb and gracefully extended diminuendo.

The high C in "Che gelida manina" is an option and it is too bad
because the melody is heard to better advantage (imho) in the original
form where the phrase is "la dolce speranza" (the word "dolce" is
omitted when the high C is used.

==G/P Dave
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

In article ,
wrote:

> The high C in "Che gelida manina" is an option and it is too bad
> because the melody is heard to better advantage (imho) in the original
> form where the phrase is "la dolce speranza" (the word "dolce" is
> omitted when the high C is used.

I do miss the word "dolce" which I think changes the flavor of the
lyric and better characterizes Rodolfo at that point. But I've come
around to preferring the C (or B, if transposed) as a better melody.

I think I'd like to hear it with "dolce" reinserted where the "la-a" is
now, the C preserved but kept light and pretty and not busted out so
muscularly.

By the way, in Puccini, "option" is strictly a typographic term
indicating that Ricordi printed it as the little note. Puccini's
general attitude toward such "options", well documented, is that he
does want the high note if the singer's got it, but the big note is
there to fall back on for those who don't. It's not musicologically
sound to pretend that the non-C version of "speranza" is somehow what
Puccini really wanted and egotistical tenors are defying him. (It
would, however, be correct to make that argument about a tenor singing
high C on "l'amor" at the end of the first act.)

mdl
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure? 

For most tenors, high C is always a challenge and a risk. The high C
in Salut is also difficult, more difficult than the one in Spirito
gentil, for example. In Salut, the tenor must jump from E natural to
high C while pronouncing a consonant, rather than sliding up on a vowel
with no intervening consonant. The French nasal vowel in preSENCE can
tend to narrow the mouth opening. The Salut high C is very effective
when sung sweetly piano or in head voice but hardly any big-voiced
tenor can sing it less than forte. Gigli, who reputedly avoided high C
when he could, recorded Salut in Italian and sang a wonderful high C on
the "u" vowel. I am a tenor with a little high C and have sung many of
the tenor arias with high C (in private). I sang in the chorus of
Faust a year ago when Michael Hayes produced a good high C and a good
high B natural in the title role. Forget about high C, have you ever
sung Celeste Aida or O tu che (Forza), each of which has three high B
flats? Or Ingemisco with two tough high B flats?

Samurai
 >> Stay informed about: What is it with the high 'C' in Salut! demeure?