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ab214

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Since: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 1



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:49 am
Post subject: Tolerance In Islam
Archived from groups: rec>music>opera (more info?)

TOLERANCE IN ISLAM
In Spain under the Umayyads and in Baghdad under the Abbasid Khalifas,
Christians and Jews, equally with Muslims, were admitted to the
Schools and universities - not only that, but were boarded and lodged
in hostels at the cost of the state. When the Moors were driven out of
Spain, the Christian conquerors held a terrific persecution of the
Jews. Those who were fortunate enough to escape fled, some of them to
Morocco and many hundreds to the Turkish empire, where their
descendants still live in separate communities, and still speak among
themselves an antiquated form of Spanish. The Muslim empire was a
refuge for all those who fled from persecution by the Inquisition.
The Western Christians, till the arrival of the Encyclopaedists in the
eighteenth century, did not know and did not care to know, what the
Muslim believed, nor did the Western Christian seek to know the views
of Eastern Christians with regard to them. The Christian Church was
already split in two, and in the end, it came to such a pass that the
Eastern Christians, as Gibbon shows, preferred Muslim rule, which
allowed them to practice their own form of religion and adhere to
their peculiar dogmas, to the rule of fellow Christians who would have
made them Roman Catholics or wiped them out.
For the Muslims, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are but three forms
of one religion, which, in its original purity, was the religion of
Abraham: Al-Islam, that perfect Self-Surrender to the Will of God,
which is the basis of Theocracy. The Jews, in their religion, after
Moses, limited God's mercy to their chosen nation and thought of His
kingdom as the dominion of their race.
Even Christ himself, as several of his sayings show, declared that he
was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel and seemed to
regard his mission as to the Hebrews only; and it was only after a
special vision vouchsafed to St. Peter that his followers in after
days considered themselves authorized to preach the Gospel to the
Gentiles. The Christians limited God's mercy to those who believed
certain dogmas. Every one who failed to hold the dogmas was an outcast
or a miscreant, to be persecuted for his or her soul's good. In Islam
only is manifest the real nature of the Kingdom of God.
The two verses (2:255-256) of the Qur'an are supplementary. Where
there is that realization of the majesty and dominion of Allah (SWT),
there is no compulsion in religion. Men choose their path - allegiance
or opposition - and it is sufficient punishment for those who oppose
that they draw further and further away from the light of truth.
In Egypt the Copts were on terms of closest friendship with the
Muslims in the first centuries of the Muslim conquest, and they are on
terms at closest friendship with the Muslims at the present day. In
Syria the various Christian communities lived on terms of closest
friendship with the Muslims in the first centuries of the Muslim
conquest, and they are on terms of closest friendship with the Muslims
at the present day, openly preferring Muslim domination to a foreign
yoke....
>From the expulsion of the Moriscos dates the degradation and decline
of Spain. San Fernando was really wiser and more patriotic in his
tolerance to conquered Seville, Murcia and Toledo than was the later
king who, under the guise of Holy warfare, captured Grenada and let
the Inquisition work its will upon the Muslims and the Jews. And the
modern Balkan States and Greece are born under a curse. It may even
prove that the degradation and decline of European civilization will
be dated from the day when so-called civilized statesmen agreed to the
inhuman policy of Czarist Russia and gave their sanction to the crude
fanaticism of the Russian Church.
There is no doubt but that, in the eyes of history, religious
toleration is the highest evidence of culture in a people. Let no
Muslim, when looking on the ruin of the Muslim realm which was
compassed through the agency of those very peoples whom the Muslims
had tolerated and protected through the centuries when Western Europe
thought it a religious duty to exterminate or forcibly convert all
peoples of another faith than theirs - let no Muslim, seeing this,
imagine that toleration is a weakness in Islam. It is the greatest
strength of Islam because it is the attitude of truth.

__________________

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Count of Warwick

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 46



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Tolerance In Islam [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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The writer above talks about the tolerance of Islam, and it looks like
he is talking from the fundamental belief of how Islam can embrace
other religions. However, in that respect, it is no different to
others. It is the practitioners and leaders who have put mankind's
interpretation on the teachings, which is where things start to go
wrong...as it has in other religions.

Personally speaking, as a Roman Catholic, I still believe the Vatican
has much to apologise for the treatment of Jews throughout the
centuries.

C of W

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Count of Warwick

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 46



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Tolerance In Islam [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>
> Raff, just yesterday, the Vatican released a statement from the Pope
> saying that Christian churches besides the Catholic church were not
> "true" churches. This has already outraged Anglicans and all the
> Protestant churches. It's 2007 and they are still arguing about this!
> Mindboggling.
---------
Exactly, Mark. People in "power" using their own interpretation for
less than scrupuloous means.

Ratzinger has been a disgrace so far as Pope. I couldn't imagine
Wojtila saying that about other churches. His speeches were about
Christian unity. In fact, I remember he and the then Archbishop of
Canterbury (Runcie, I think) going to each other's places of worship.
I feared Ratzinger's election as Pope would go back to the bad old
days. I've not been proven wrong, so far...

C of W
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gerberk

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Since: May 01, 2007
Posts: 97



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Tolerance In Islam [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hey we have an Islamic opera lover that is cool

This post would not have made it in a moderated group


<ab214 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1184176180.313942.129370@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> TOLERANCE IN ISLAM
> In Spain under the Umayyads and in Baghdad under the Abbasid Khalifas,
> Christians and Jews, equally with Muslims, were admitted to the
> Schools and universities - not only that, but were boarded and lodged
> in hostels at the cost of the state. When the Moors were driven out of
> Spain, the Christian conquerors held a terrific persecution of the
> Jews. Those who were fortunate enough to escape fled, some of them to
> Morocco and many hundreds to the Turkish empire, where their
> descendants still live in separate communities, and still speak among
> themselves an antiquated form of Spanish. The Muslim empire was a
> refuge for all those who fled from persecution by the Inquisition.
> The Western Christians, till the arrival of the Encyclopaedists in the
> eighteenth century, did not know and did not care to know, what the
> Muslim believed, nor did the Western Christian seek to know the views
> of Eastern Christians with regard to them. The Christian Church was
> already split in two, and in the end, it came to such a pass that the
> Eastern Christians, as Gibbon shows, preferred Muslim rule, which
> allowed them to practice their own form of religion and adhere to
> their peculiar dogmas, to the rule of fellow Christians who would have
> made them Roman Catholics or wiped them out.
> For the Muslims, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are but three forms
> of one religion, which, in its original purity, was the religion of
> Abraham: Al-Islam, that perfect Self-Surrender to the Will of God,
> which is the basis of Theocracy. The Jews, in their religion, after
> Moses, limited God's mercy to their chosen nation and thought of His
> kingdom as the dominion of their race.
> Even Christ himself, as several of his sayings show, declared that he
> was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel and seemed to
> regard his mission as to the Hebrews only; and it was only after a
> special vision vouchsafed to St. Peter that his followers in after
> days considered themselves authorized to preach the Gospel to the
> Gentiles. The Christians limited God's mercy to those who believed
> certain dogmas. Every one who failed to hold the dogmas was an outcast
> or a miscreant, to be persecuted for his or her soul's good. In Islam
> only is manifest the real nature of the Kingdom of God.
> The two verses (2:255-256) of the Qur'an are supplementary. Where
> there is that realization of the majesty and dominion of Allah (SWT),
> there is no compulsion in religion. Men choose their path - allegiance
> or opposition - and it is sufficient punishment for those who oppose
> that they draw further and further away from the light of truth.
> In Egypt the Copts were on terms of closest friendship with the
> Muslims in the first centuries of the Muslim conquest, and they are on
> terms at closest friendship with the Muslims at the present day. In
> Syria the various Christian communities lived on terms of closest
> friendship with the Muslims in the first centuries of the Muslim
> conquest, and they are on terms of closest friendship with the Muslims
> at the present day, openly preferring Muslim domination to a foreign
> yoke....
>>From the expulsion of the Moriscos dates the degradation and decline
> of Spain. San Fernando was really wiser and more patriotic in his
> tolerance to conquered Seville, Murcia and Toledo than was the later
> king who, under the guise of Holy warfare, captured Grenada and let
> the Inquisition work its will upon the Muslims and the Jews. And the
> modern Balkan States and Greece are born under a curse. It may even
> prove that the degradation and decline of European civilization will
> be dated from the day when so-called civilized statesmen agreed to the
> inhuman policy of Czarist Russia and gave their sanction to the crude
> fanaticism of the Russian Church.
> There is no doubt but that, in the eyes of history, religious
> toleration is the highest evidence of culture in a people. Let no
> Muslim, when looking on the ruin of the Muslim realm which was
> compassed through the agency of those very peoples whom the Muslims
> had tolerated and protected through the centuries when Western Europe
> thought it a religious duty to exterminate or forcibly convert all
> peoples of another faith than theirs - let no Muslim, seeing this,
> imagine that toleration is a weakness in Islam. It is the greatest
> strength of Islam because it is the attitude of truth.
>
> __________________
>
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Count of Warwick

External


Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 46



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: Tolerance In Islam [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 12 Jul, 12:53, "Claud Shirley" <chs... DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Ratzinger" has said nothing new, and nothing John Paul II didn't say - and
> nothing wrong. And who's arguing? And who's in the wrong place to be doing
> it?
> ----------
Except that John Paul II didn't make any statements like that. In
short, Ratzinger has offended people's individual faith. John Paul II
spent most of his papacy trying to get some dialogue going, not just
between different religions,(relations between Jerusalem and the
Vatican were improving, after decades of iciness) but between
denominations, too.

Can you imagine the representative of any Protestant Church willing to
hold discussions with Ratzinger when he makes comments like that?

C of W
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Mark

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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 155



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: Tolerance In Islam [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 12, 1:26 am, Count of Warwick <raff_martin... RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> The writer above talks about the tolerance of Islam, and it looks like
> he is talking from the fundamental belief of how Islam can embrace
> other religions. However, in that respect, it is no different to
> others. It is the practitioners and leaders who have put mankind's
> interpretation on the teachings, which is where things start to go
> wrong...as it has in other religions.
>
> Personally speaking, as a Roman Catholic, I still believe the Vatican
> has much to apologise for the treatment of Jews throughout the
> centuries.
>
> C of W

Raff, just yesterday, the Vatican released a statement from the Pope
saying that Christian churches besides the Catholic church were not
"true" churches. This has already outraged Anglicans and all the
Protestant churches. It's 2007 and they are still arguing about this!
Mindboggling.
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Claud Shirley

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Since: Aug 29, 2005
Posts: 6



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: Tolerance In Islam [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Ratzinger" has said nothing new, and nothing John Paul II didn't say - and
nothing wrong. And who's arguing? And who's in the wrong place to be doing
it?

..
"Count of Warwick" <raff_martino_7.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1184219660.778107.241100@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> >
>> Raff, just yesterday, the Vatican released a statement from the Pope
>> saying that Christian churches besides the Catholic church were not
>> "true" churches. This has already outraged Anglicans and all the
>> Protestant churches. It's 2007 and they are still arguing about this!
>> Mindboggling.
> ---------
> Exactly, Mark. People in "power" using their own interpretation for
> less than scrupuloous means.
>
> Ratzinger has been a disgrace so far as Pope. I couldn't imagine
> Wojtila saying that about other churches. His speeches were about
> Christian unity. In fact, I remember he and the then Archbishop of
> Canterbury (Runcie, I think) going to each other's places of worship.
> I feared Ratzinger's election as Pope would go back to the bad old
> days. I've not been proven wrong, so far...
>
> C of W
>
>
>
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Mark D Lew

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Since: Jul 12, 2005
Posts: 298



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Tolerance In Islam [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <1184176180.313942.129370.DeleteThis@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
<ab214.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> TOLERANCE IN ISLAM

I've a reputation for being something of an Islamophile, and I
certainly admire the tolerance of classical Islam.

Nevertheless, I would argue that that culture of tolerance had little
to do with the religion and much to do with the economic basis of the
Islamic world.

The Islamic world of classical times was a region that thrived on
trade. Demographically, it was an economy that benefitted from
bringing more people in, rather than the reverse. Historically, such
societies tend toward tolerance. A country that has a surfeit of
opportunity and a shortage of population will become tolerant; a
country that has too little opportunity for too many people will do the
reverse.

Islam, like Christianity, is a flexible religion. It can readily adapt
to whatever the culture's needs are -- whether they be admirable or
horrific.

mdl
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