Salut! demeure

In article , Jeffrey
wrote:

> Someone not long ago commented on the outpouring of passion that
> formed the core of this aria. Now here's a question, which, I suppose
> could equally apply to an aria like 'Che gelida manina' or 'Cielo e mar' or,
> to be sure many others - could the top note at the end represent a vocal
> orgasm?
> I mean, how many arias concerning amatory love have the top note
> near the beginning?

This is exactly why I hate the interpolated high Bb that some tenors
put at the end of "Cielo e mar". It's one of the most orgasmic arias
in the repertoire. The climax is clearly at "vieni al baaaacio", and
those drippy little "ah vien"s are just as clearly meant to shrink away
in post-climactic self-satisfaction.

What I find so interesting about the aria is that all of this happens
before Laura even shows up. Gioconda is a lurid opera, and there's a
decidedly masturbatory subtext to "Cielo e mar", what with all that
language about heavy breathing and lurking in the mists.

mdl
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"Mark D Lew" wrote in message

> In article , Jeffrey
> wrote:
>
Gioconda is a lurid opera, and there's a
> decidedly masturbatory subtext to "Cielo e mar", what with all that
> language about heavy breathing and lurking in the mists.
>
> mdl

Masturbatory?
Please don't forget Enzo & his implied necrophilia, Mark.
Don't let all the old values float away down the Styx.
Æ S ~ Principe di fiori morte
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In article , Jeffrey
wrote:

> I mean, how many arias concerning amatory love have the top note
> near the beginning?

Strictly speaking it's not the highest note in the song, but arguably
"Aaaaah, sweet mystery of life at last I've found thee" starts with the
money note and comes down from there.

The refrain of "O sole mio" has a similar shape, especially if you
don't interpolate a high re at the end.

The refrain of "All I ask of you", the duet from Phantom of the Opera,
is another one based on a phrase that starts at the top and sweeps
downward.

In each case, singers often try to follow the usual pattern by
interpolating an extra high note near the end, but the song resists it.

mdl
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I think this kind of analysis - the high note is an orgasm - is the kind of
gloss that can be put on any 'love' song - it just doesn't make any sense to
me. It may well be the high point of passion in the song, or it may not, but
that's hardly the same thing as an orgasm in the context of the aria or how
the audience would have experienced it. What do you do at the end of the
first act of Boheme? She has an orgasm and he doesn't? Or they come together
as they are walking down the stairs? There's a concreteness in thinking that
makes such a formulaic equivalency (not on your part, Mark).


"Mark D Lew" wrote in message

> In article , Jeffrey
> wrote:
>
>> Someone not long ago commented on the outpouring of passion that
>> formed the core of this aria. Now here's a question, which, I suppose
>> could equally apply to an aria like 'Che gelida manina' or 'Cielo e mar'
>> or,
>> to be sure many others - could the top note at the end represent a vocal
>> orgasm?
>> I mean, how many arias concerning amatory love have the top note
>> near the beginning?
>
> This is exactly why I hate the interpolated high Bb that some tenors
> put at the end of "Cielo e mar". It's one of the most orgasmic arias
> in the repertoire. The climax is clearly at "vieni al baaaacio", and
> those drippy little "ah vien"s are just as clearly meant to shrink away
> in post-climactic self-satisfaction.
>
> What I find so interesting about the aria is that all of this happens
> before Laura even shows up. Gioconda is a lurid opera, and there's a
> decidedly masturbatory subtext to "Cielo e mar", what with all that
> language about heavy breathing and lurking in the mists.
>
> mdl
 >> Stay informed about: Salut! demeure 

In article , REG
wrote:

> I think this kind of analysis - the high note is an orgasm - is the kind of
> gloss that can be put on any 'love' song - it just doesn't make any sense to
> me. It may well be the high point of passion in the song, or it may not, but
> that's hardly the same thing as an orgasm in the context of the aria or how
> the audience would have experienced it. What do you do at the end of the
> first act of Boheme? She has an orgasm and he doesn't? Or they come together
> as they are walking down the stairs? There's a concreteness in thinking that
> makes such a formulaic equivalency (not on your part, Mark).

Not on my part at all. I don't think that the orgasmic interpretation
can be applied to any aria. I think that some arias strongly suggest
it, most vaguely hint at it, and some don't suggest it at all. Hence
my assertion that "Cielo e mar" is one of the most orgasmic arias in
the repertoire ... as opposed to the many others that aren't.

I don't find the end of act 1 of Boheme "orgasmic" at all, though "Che
gelida manina" is. I also don't get any sense of orgasm from "Salut,
demeure", which started this discussion. Maybe it's a personal thing.
The arc of the aria is wrong. It stays at a fairly even keel for most
of the aria, has a mild climax at the end of the middle section, then
near the end after it's been settling down for a while, suddenly out of
nowhere there's a super high note, and then it finishes settling down.
Nothing wrong with that for an aria, but that's not how I'd describe
any orgasmic experience.

The works for some instrumental works as well. The most orgasmic piece
I know is the Romance from Anton Rubinstein's "Evenings in St
Petersburg". In that case, I'm pretty sure it's a deliberate
depiction.

In most cases, I don't think the symbolism is so direct. I do,
however, think that music is enhanced when it draws upon natural
rhythms and patterns. We often think about how a beat in music pleases
the listener when it's reminiscent of a heartbeat. Only in a few
special cases is music written with the intention of depicting a
heartbeat explicitly, but the general resemblance resonates with us in
a less direct way. I think it's a similar idea when the pattern of a
song resembles the pattern of a sexual experience.

mdl

P.S. By the way, REG, this talk of "Cielo e mar" reminds me of a
discussion we had several months ago when you inquired about arias that
end on the fifth (sol) of the scale. Somehow we all managed to forget
about "Che gelida manina", which does exactly that with its "vi piaccia
dir....".
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At least in the standard repertoire, the closest I can think of a kind of
union of that kind is the end of Act I of Butterfly, where I think that the
whole duet is in fact a symbolization of increasing, 'mounting' tension and
release - somthing I think David Gable was writing about in terms of the
Liebstod a while back.

But generally I think it's quite a stretch.

"Mark D Lew" wrote in message

> In article , REG
> wrote:
>
>> I think this kind of analysis - the high note is an orgasm - is the kind
>> of
>> gloss that can be put on any 'love' song - it just doesn't make any sense
>> to
>> me. It may well be the high point of passion in the song, or it may not,
>> but
>> that's hardly the same thing as an orgasm in the context of the aria or
>> how
>> the audience would have experienced it. What do you do at the end of the
>> first act of Boheme? She has an orgasm and he doesn't? Or they come
>> together
>> as they are walking down the stairs? There's a concreteness in thinking
>> that
>> makes such a formulaic equivalency (not on your part, Mark).
>
> Not on my part at all. I don't think that the orgasmic interpretation
> can be applied to any aria. I think that some arias strongly suggest
> it, most vaguely hint at it, and some don't suggest it at all. Hence
> my assertion that "Cielo e mar" is one of the most orgasmic arias in
> the repertoire ... as opposed to the many others that aren't.
>
> I don't find the end of act 1 of Boheme "orgasmic" at all, though "Che
> gelida manina" is. I also don't get any sense of orgasm from "Salut,
> demeure", which started this discussion. Maybe it's a personal thing.
> The arc of the aria is wrong. It stays at a fairly even keel for most
> of the aria, has a mild climax at the end of the middle section, then
> near the end after it's been settling down for a while, suddenly out of
> nowhere there's a super high note, and then it finishes settling down.
> Nothing wrong with that for an aria, but that's not how I'd describe
> any orgasmic experience.
>
> The works for some instrumental works as well. The most orgasmic piece
> I know is the Romance from Anton Rubinstein's "Evenings in St
> Petersburg". In that case, I'm pretty sure it's a deliberate
> depiction.
>
> In most cases, I don't think the symbolism is so direct. I do,
> however, think that music is enhanced when it draws upon natural
> rhythms and patterns. We often think about how a beat in music pleases
> the listener when it's reminiscent of a heartbeat. Only in a few
> special cases is music written with the intention of depicting a
> heartbeat explicitly, but the general resemblance resonates with us in
> a less direct way. I think it's a similar idea when the pattern of a
> song resembles the pattern of a sexual experience.
>
> mdl
>
> P.S. By the way, REG, this talk of "Cielo e mar" reminds me of a
> discussion we had several months ago when you inquired about arias that
> end on the fifth (sol) of the scale. Somehow we all managed to forget
> about "Che gelida manina", which does exactly that with its "vi piaccia
> dir....".
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