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Since: Jul 07, 2005 Posts: 3566
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:36 pm
Post subject: Ring Rang Rung - xpost
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I shall not write of a concept - the Ring as the story of the Creature
from the Black Lagoon - which could only be taken seriously by a
nation which believed twenty years ago that Dialectical Materialism
was Queen of the Sciences, or a set, and production values, which
bespeak a lack of awareness, or perhaps resources, to create a quality
which which not be seen on large college campuses today. I will ignore
the singers, who in only three instances rose to the level of
international mediocrity and an orchestra which, under this conductor
and in this repertoire and tonight, stands so far back that it can't
see the front of line and sounds as if its members cannot hear each
other - soft playing has no tone quality whatsoever, it genuinely
seems as if the players cannot hear each other, and there is simply no
sense of euphony in this orchstrally beautifully written score.
Instead, I shall make two points about the conducting, which is surely
fraudulent. First, Mr.Gergiev has no sense of how to build or taper
dynamics. He never overwhelmed the singers, true, but there was no
capacity to build a crescendo - fatal for the first measures of the
opera, and completely anticlimactic for the ending, and even as he hit
and maintained a 'steady' loudness in the last pages of the work, in
each bar the brass would be sometimes louder, sometimes (slightly)
softer, so that there was no cumulative impact even there. Furtwangler
once said of Toscanini that he had only one forte and one piano, but
whether true or the product of professional jealousy, Toscanini had a
consistent forte and piano. Gergiev has no sense of dynamic nuance at
all, and it creates a sense of sameness in so much of the music that
it is ultimately numbing to the listener.
Secondly, and more seriously, he has no sense of the underlying time
relationships in the music. His conducting proceeds measure to
measure, as it were - this is not a matter of bad phrasing, but of the
absolute inability to convey a sense of the basic unit of 'pulse' to
the music, which is not the bar line, but groups of four, eight, and
twenty-four and more measures, all of which together make 'one'
measure. The supposedly magical Eb had no impact, much less any
'meaning' and seemed interminable - a prefiguring of the entire
evening - and in proceeding measure to measure in music which does not
often have the guidelines of recognizable 'melody', the movemement
from bar to bar was sometimes perceptibly rushed or lagged in
seemingly arbitrary and incoherent ways, and the impact was not
timelessness, but rather a prison for an indeterminate sentence.
The audience gave respectful applause, but not the enthusiasm I've
seen many times at the end of Rheingold, where the audience can feel
that it's begun a very special journey along with the performers. And
this is precisely why 'opera queens' and others who care about
performance need not simply to be anchored in the today's newspaper
with whoever is 'selling tickets' at the moment, but listeners who can
tell the counterfeit from the real by reference to prior performances
and the standards they establish.
Screw this. Tommorrow night I'm going up to Caramoor and hear Ewa
Podles tear away at Azucena. >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Nov 08, 2006 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:11 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"REG" <Richergar.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:469844ca$0$16544$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> by a nation which believed twenty years ago that Dialectical Materialism
> was Queen of the Sciences, <
A science . . . . ? For foreign consumption only.
Was maybe a theory, was maybe a method, like historiography fer
instance, was maybe even philosophy ( of a sort ) but leave already the
Russians alone with this Dialectical Materialism business, please.
They already got enough tsouris with Siberia & all that melting tundra.
Have rachmones, their great-grandfathers could have killed your
great-grandfathers in any number of pogroms, ideological or otherwise. You
think they liked it? Somebody hadda do it. Otherwise The Lower East Side
would still be Irish.
Kind regards
Lev Bronstein's Ghost
We old socialists will be on a cruise for several days starting Sunday. ( an
ideological vacation to rebuild our political imagination) >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Nov 08, 2006 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:13 am
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Since: Jun 01, 2007 Posts: 146
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:27 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 13, 11:36 pm, "REG" <Richer....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I shall not write of a concept - the Ring as the story of the Creature
> from the Black Lagoon - which could only be taken seriously by a
> nation which believed twenty years ago that Dialectical Materialism
> was Queen of the Sciences, or a set, and production values, which
> bespeak a lack of awareness, or perhaps resources, to create a quality
> which which not be seen on large college campuses today. I will ignore
> the singers, who in only three instances rose to the level of
> international mediocrity and an orchestra which, under this conductor
> and in this repertoire and tonight, stands so far back that it can't
> see the front of line and sounds as if its members cannot hear each
> other - soft playing has no tone quality whatsoever, it genuinely
> seems as if the players cannot hear each other, and there is simply no
> sense of euphony in this orchstrally beautifully written score.
>
> Instead, I shall make two points about the conducting, which is surely
> fraudulent. First, Mr.Gergiev has no sense of how to build or taper
> dynamics. He never overwhelmed the singers, true, but there was no
> capacity to build a crescendo - fatal for the first measures of the
> opera, and completely anticlimactic for the ending, and even as he hit
> and maintained a 'steady' loudness in the last pages of the work, in
> each bar the brass would be sometimes louder, sometimes (slightly)
> softer, so that there was no cumulative impact even there. Furtwangler
> once said of Toscanini that he had only one forte and one piano, but
> whether true or the product of professional jealousy, Toscanini had a
> consistent forte and piano. Gergiev has no sense of dynamic nuance at
> all, and it creates a sense of sameness in so much of the music that
> it is ultimately numbing to the listener.
>
> Secondly, and more seriously, he has no sense of the underlying time
> relationships in the music. His conducting proceeds measure to
> measure, as it were - this is not a matter of bad phrasing, but of the
> absolute inability to convey a sense of the basic unit of 'pulse' to
> the music, which is not the bar line, but groups of four, eight, and
> twenty-four and more measures, all of which together make 'one'
> measure. The supposedly magical Eb had no impact, much less any
> 'meaning' and seemed interminable - a prefiguring of the entire
> evening - and in proceeding measure to measure in music which does not
> often have the guidelines of recognizable 'melody', the movemement
> from bar to bar was sometimes perceptibly rushed or lagged in
> seemingly arbitrary and incoherent ways, and the impact was not
> timelessness, but rather a prison for an indeterminate sentence.
>
> The audience gave respectful applause, but not the enthusiasm I've
> seen many times at the end of Rheingold, where the audience can feel
> that it's begun a very special journey along with the performers. And
> this is precisely why 'opera queens' and others who care about
> performance need not simply to be anchored in the today's newspaper
> with whoever is 'selling tickets' at the moment, but listeners who can
> tell the counterfeit from the real by reference to prior performances
> and the standards they establish.
>
> Screw this. Tommorrow night I'm going up to Caramoor and hear Ewa
> Podles tear away at Azucena.
This does not bode well for this Ring. Rheingold must be the "easiest"
of the music dramas, and perhaps the only proper opera, in the set.
Funny that you never even mentioned the singing. How was it? Rheingold
is the one opera out of the Ring that I like the best, but it still
takes great singers and a large orchestra to pull it off. >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jul 07, 2005 Posts: 3566
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:17 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I sit all day in mourning without electricity.
Very much like John McCain.
Only not as liberal.
"andre35" <andre35.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:odOdnWxy46XG0QXbnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> PS - Happy Bastille Day
>
> Jean-Jacque Rousseau's Ghost
> >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jul 07, 2005 Posts: 3566
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:19 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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The thing I like abou cruisese is that everything is arranged so nicely into
classes that dialectical materialism doesn't apply.
Except at supper.
Enjoy the synthesis.
"andre35" <andre35.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:v9udnYVhb5V01gXbnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "REG" <Richergar.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:469844ca$0$16544$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> by a nation which believed twenty years ago that Dialectical Materialism
>> was Queen of the Sciences, <
>
> A science . . . . ? For foreign consumption only.
> Was maybe a theory, was maybe a method, like historiography fer
> instance, was maybe even philosophy ( of a sort ) but leave already the
> Russians alone with this Dialectical Materialism business, please.
> They already got enough tsouris with Siberia & all that melting
> tundra.
> Have rachmones, their great-grandfathers could have killed your
> great-grandfathers in any number of pogroms, ideological or otherwise. You
> think they liked it? Somebody hadda do it. Otherwise The Lower East Side
> would still be Irish.
> Kind regards
> Lev Bronstein's Ghost
>
> We old socialists will be on a cruise for several days starting Sunday.
> ( an ideological vacation to rebuild our political imagination)
> >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jul 07, 2005 Posts: 894
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:44 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Mark" <mark.clavecin.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184387277.417035.223210@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 13, 11:36 pm, "REG" <Richer....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I shall not write of a concept - the Ring as the story of the Creature
>> from the Black Lagoon - which could only be taken seriously by a
>> nation which believed twenty years ago that Dialectical Materialism
>> was Queen of the Sciences, or a set, and production values, which
>> bespeak a lack of awareness, or perhaps resources, to create a quality
>> which which not be seen on large college campuses today. I will ignore
>> the singers, who in only three instances rose to the level of
>> international mediocrity and an orchestra which, under this conductor
>> and in this repertoire and tonight, stands so far back that it can't
>> see the front of line and sounds as if its members cannot hear each
>> other - soft playing has no tone quality whatsoever, it genuinely
>> seems as if the players cannot hear each other, and there is simply no
>> sense of euphony in this orchstrally beautifully written score.
>>
>> Instead, I shall make two points about the conducting, which is surely
>> fraudulent. First, Mr.Gergiev has no sense of how to build or taper
>> dynamics. He never overwhelmed the singers, true, but there was no
>> capacity to build a crescendo - fatal for the first measures of the
>> opera, and completely anticlimactic for the ending, and even as he hit
>> and maintained a 'steady' loudness in the last pages of the work, in
>> each bar the brass would be sometimes louder, sometimes (slightly)
>> softer, so that there was no cumulative impact even there. Furtwangler
>> once said of Toscanini that he had only one forte and one piano, but
>> whether true or the product of professional jealousy, Toscanini had a
>> consistent forte and piano. Gergiev has no sense of dynamic nuance at
>> all, and it creates a sense of sameness in so much of the music that
>> it is ultimately numbing to the listener.
>>
>> Secondly, and more seriously, he has no sense of the underlying time
>> relationships in the music. His conducting proceeds measure to
>> measure, as it were - this is not a matter of bad phrasing, but of the
>> absolute inability to convey a sense of the basic unit of 'pulse' to
>> the music, which is not the bar line, but groups of four, eight, and
>> twenty-four and more measures, all of which together make 'one'
>> measure. The supposedly magical Eb had no impact, much less any
>> 'meaning' and seemed interminable - a prefiguring of the entire
>> evening - and in proceeding measure to measure in music which does not
>> often have the guidelines of recognizable 'melody', the movemement
>> from bar to bar was sometimes perceptibly rushed or lagged in
>> seemingly arbitrary and incoherent ways, and the impact was not
>> timelessness, but rather a prison for an indeterminate sentence.
>>
>> The audience gave respectful applause, but not the enthusiasm I've
>> seen many times at the end of Rheingold, where the audience can feel
>> that it's begun a very special journey along with the performers. And
>> this is precisely why 'opera queens' and others who care about
>> performance need not simply to be anchored in the today's newspaper
>> with whoever is 'selling tickets' at the moment, but listeners who can
>> tell the counterfeit from the real by reference to prior performances
>> and the standards they establish.
>>
>> Screw this. Tommorrow night I'm going up to Caramoor and hear Ewa
>> Podles tear away at Azucena.
>
> This does not bode well for this Ring. Rheingold must be the "easiest"
> of the music dramas, and perhaps the only proper opera, in the set.
> Funny that you never even mentioned the singing. How was it? Rheingold
> is the one opera out of the Ring that I like the best, but it still
> takes great singers and a large orchestra to pull it off.
>
Shame really and rather surprising since Gergievs
conducting of the Mravinsky forces in Baden Baden last year, judging by the
recording, was absolutely superb. Richard >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jul 07, 2005 Posts: 3566
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:47 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hi
It's a fair question, but I thought the whole evening so numbing that I
didn't think it made sense to single people out. I thought the Fricka,
Larissa Diadkova (who is otherwise fairly well known) a good singer, but not
one with much passion in a role that can be fiery. The Erda, Zlata
Bulycheva, has a soft, warm voice, but not particularly large. I kind of
liked the Loge, Vaily Gorshkov, not because he was an impressive singer, but
because he made his stage presence into something interesting for me -
almost as if Loge was a petty official or petty beurocrat (sp), and that was
interesting - he wasn't so much wise as kind of self-important.. Beyond that
it was something that didn't begin to justify the ticket prices, imho.
Best
"Mark" <mark.clavecin.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184387277.417035.223210@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 13, 11:36 pm, "REG" <Richer....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I shall not write of a concept - the Ring as the story of the Creature
>> from the Black Lagoon - which could only be taken seriously by a
>> nation which believed twenty years ago that Dialectical Materialism
>> was Queen of the Sciences, or a set, and production values, which
>> bespeak a lack of awareness, or perhaps resources, to create a quality
>> which which not be seen on large college campuses today. I will ignore
>> the singers, who in only three instances rose to the level of
>> international mediocrity and an orchestra which, under this conductor
>> and in this repertoire and tonight, stands so far back that it can't
>> see the front of line and sounds as if its members cannot hear each
>> other - soft playing has no tone quality whatsoever, it genuinely
>> seems as if the players cannot hear each other, and there is simply no
>> sense of euphony in this orchstrally beautifully written score.
>>
>> Instead, I shall make two points about the conducting, which is surely
>> fraudulent. First, Mr.Gergiev has no sense of how to build or taper
>> dynamics. He never overwhelmed the singers, true, but there was no
>> capacity to build a crescendo - fatal for the first measures of the
>> opera, and completely anticlimactic for the ending, and even as he hit
>> and maintained a 'steady' loudness in the last pages of the work, in
>> each bar the brass would be sometimes louder, sometimes (slightly)
>> softer, so that there was no cumulative impact even there. Furtwangler
>> once said of Toscanini that he had only one forte and one piano, but
>> whether true or the product of professional jealousy, Toscanini had a
>> consistent forte and piano. Gergiev has no sense of dynamic nuance at
>> all, and it creates a sense of sameness in so much of the music that
>> it is ultimately numbing to the listener.
>>
>> Secondly, and more seriously, he has no sense of the underlying time
>> relationships in the music. His conducting proceeds measure to
>> measure, as it were - this is not a matter of bad phrasing, but of the
>> absolute inability to convey a sense of the basic unit of 'pulse' to
>> the music, which is not the bar line, but groups of four, eight, and
>> twenty-four and more measures, all of which together make 'one'
>> measure. The supposedly magical Eb had no impact, much less any
>> 'meaning' and seemed interminable - a prefiguring of the entire
>> evening - and in proceeding measure to measure in music which does not
>> often have the guidelines of recognizable 'melody', the movemement
>> from bar to bar was sometimes perceptibly rushed or lagged in
>> seemingly arbitrary and incoherent ways, and the impact was not
>> timelessness, but rather a prison for an indeterminate sentence.
>>
>> The audience gave respectful applause, but not the enthusiasm I've
>> seen many times at the end of Rheingold, where the audience can feel
>> that it's begun a very special journey along with the performers. And
>> this is precisely why 'opera queens' and others who care about
>> performance need not simply to be anchored in the today's newspaper
>> with whoever is 'selling tickets' at the moment, but listeners who can
>> tell the counterfeit from the real by reference to prior performances
>> and the standards they establish.
>>
>> Screw this. Tommorrow night I'm going up to Caramoor and hear Ewa
>> Podles tear away at Azucena.
>
> This does not bode well for this Ring. Rheingold must be the "easiest"
> of the music dramas, and perhaps the only proper opera, in the set.
> Funny that you never even mentioned the singing. How was it? Rheingold
> is the one opera out of the Ring that I like the best, but it still
> takes great singers and a large orchestra to pull it off.
> >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jul 09, 2005 Posts: 1844
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:46 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"We old socialists will be on a cruise for several days starting Sunday. (
an
ideological vacation to rebuild our political imagination) "
Why ? What are you doing ? Cruising derelict Polish shipyards ?
SJT, the man with the ice-pick >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jul 09, 2005 Posts: 1844
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:52 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Well, I did warn you. When they played the nothing staging in Cardiff last
year it was met with a universal critical drubbing, much of it focussed on
Tsypin's piss-poor set(s), but plenty aimed and Gergiev and the orchestra as
well.
Doesn't seem that things have perked up much in the trot across the
Atlantic..
SJT. who nevertheless expects nothing any better this Autumn out of Covent
Garden's cluttered chaos of both staging and conducting/playing, alas... >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jun 04, 2007 Posts: 52
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:51 pm
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On Jul 15, 4:52?am, "Stephen Jay-Taylor" <sjaytay... RemoveThis @btinternet.com>
wrote:
> Well, I did warn you. When they played the nothing staging in Cardiff last
> year it was met with a universal critical drubbing, much of it focussed on
> Tsypin's piss-poor set(s), but plenty aimed and Gergiev and the orchestra as
> well.
>
> Doesn't seem that things have perked up much in the trot across the
> Atlantic..
>
> SJT. who nevertheless expects nothing any better this Autumn out of Covent
> Garden's cluttered chaos of both staging and conducting/playing, alas...
I obviously cannot comment on the Wagner performance because I was not
there
and have not heard it but I can offer an opinion on his Philips
recordings
of the operas of Rimsky-Korsakov which are, in almost most respects, a
complete
travesty of the composer and who with the centenary of his death
coming up
next year desperately needs an international advocate. So far as I
know as I
know there is not one in sight and Gergiev certainly is not the one.
How I envy the Z-man with his Mr Conlon! Instead, Rimsky-Korsakov has
the
hapless Fedoseyev occasionally performing and cutting huge chunks out
of most
of it (his classic is Kitezh where he cuts a couple of cameos early on
and
then puts them back in later, entirely unexplained but a masterstroke
if you
like that sort of thing).
Rimsky and Wagner do actually have things in common, or so I think.
They
are more tableaux for a start and more 50-50 opera and orchestra than
some
works. If Mr Gergiev failed to understand that in Wagner it might
explain why he
failed to understand it as you thought and why I think it so in
Rimsky-Korsakov.
It might be argued that if you don't get the first five minutes of
Das
Rheingold "right" you might affect the rest of it. So it is with a
Kitezh,
another scene setter, and he certainly completely misreads that. For
that matter
it could be said of Sadko. Tableaux II is set by a lake (not there's
a
thing). Three white swans (swans?, now there's another thing) swim
towards Sadko
and...errr....transform themselves into maidens, now there's another
thing.
And in that process some of the many astute listeners on this group
may note
in the string and harp writing that, for some curious reason, they are
not
a million miles away from Gotterdammerung. Confusing isn't it?
Not with Gergiev it isn't because on Philips he manages to miss nearly
all
of this stuff spectacularly.
Try the opening of the Second Tableaux folks. Where the hell does that
come
from? Play spot the Wagner if you wish.
If you wish to play spot the Wagner in either forget Gergiev.
If, as seems doubtful, anyone wishes to explore spot the Wagner, or
even
Rimsky-Korsakov, they are directed to:
Kitezh: MVTCD 063065
Sadko: Preiser 90655 or MVTCD 009011
As a bonus in both cases there were access to the master tapes and
corrections of pitches in all previous issues. Quite how Preiser came
across the
master tapes of Sadko is a matter of some speculation elsewhere (some
have
suggested that money changed hands) but master tapes both are.
And both a different take from Mr Gergiev or so I think.
Personally, I am just glad Philips pulled the plug on this project
before he
got to Christmas Eve.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jul 07, 2005 Posts: 894
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:51 pm
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<alanwatkinsuk.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1184536313.643840.110960@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 15, 4:52?am, "Stephen Jay-Taylor" <sjaytay....TakeThisOut@btinternet.com>
> wrote:
>> Well, I did warn you. When they played the nothing staging in Cardiff
>> last
>> year it was met with a universal critical drubbing, much of it focussed
>> on
>> Tsypin's piss-poor set(s), but plenty aimed and Gergiev and the orchestra
>> as
>> well.
>>
>> Doesn't seem that things have perked up much in the trot across the
>> Atlantic..
>>
>> SJT. who nevertheless expects nothing any better this Autumn out of
>> Covent
>> Garden's cluttered chaos of both staging and conducting/playing, alas...
>
> I obviously cannot comment on the Wagner performance because I was not
> there
> and have not heard it but I can offer an opinion on his Philips
> recordings
> of the operas of Rimsky-Korsakov which are, in almost most respects, a
> complete
> travesty of the composer and who with the centenary of his death
> coming up
> next year desperately needs an international advocate. So far as I
> know as I
> know there is not one in sight and Gergiev certainly is not the one.
>
> How I envy the Z-man with his Mr Conlon! Instead, Rimsky-Korsakov has
> the
> hapless Fedoseyev occasionally performing and cutting huge chunks out
> of most
> of it (his classic is Kitezh where he cuts a couple of cameos early on
> and
> then puts them back in later, entirely unexplained but a masterstroke
> if you
> like that sort of thing).
>
> Rimsky and Wagner do actually have things in common, or so I think.
> They
> are more tableaux for a start and more 50-50 opera and orchestra than
> some
> works. If Mr Gergiev failed to understand that in Wagner it might
> explain why he
> failed to understand it as you thought and why I think it so in
> Rimsky-Korsakov.
>
> It might be argued that if you don't get the first five minutes of
> Das
> Rheingold "right" you might affect the rest of it. So it is with a
> Kitezh,
> another scene setter, and he certainly completely misreads that. For
> that matter
> it could be said of Sadko. Tableaux II is set by a lake (not there's
> a
> thing). Three white swans (swans?, now there's another thing) swim
> towards Sadko
> and...errr....transform themselves into maidens, now there's another
> thing.
> And in that process some of the many astute listeners on this group
> may note
> in the string and harp writing that, for some curious reason, they are
> not
> a million miles away from Gotterdammerung. Confusing isn't it?
>
> Not with Gergiev it isn't because on Philips he manages to miss nearly
> all
> of this stuff spectacularly.
>
> Try the opening of the Second Tableaux folks. Where the hell does that
> come
> from? Play spot the Wagner if you wish.
>
> If you wish to play spot the Wagner in either forget Gergiev.
>
> If, as seems doubtful, anyone wishes to explore spot the Wagner, or
> even
> Rimsky-Korsakov, they are directed to:
>
> Kitezh: MVTCD 063065
> Sadko: Preiser 90655 or MVTCD 009011
>
> As a bonus in both cases there were access to the master tapes and
> corrections of pitches in all previous issues. Quite how Preiser came
> across the
> master tapes of Sadko is a matter of some speculation elsewhere (some
> have
> suggested that money changed hands) but master tapes both are.
>
> And both a different take from Mr Gergiev or so I think.
>
> Personally, I am just glad Philips pulled the plug on this project
> before he
> got to Christmas Eve.
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins
>
I agree - I find Gergiev rather ordinary in these magical works and I always
go back to those 1950s recordings to hear the real spark - I was really
surprised and happy to hear that Preiser has issued the great Sadko in
improved sound - that whole set is worth the scene with the three guests
where Reizen, Lisitsian and Kozlovsky stand up and sit down after giving
free singing lessons to the listeners!!! What we REALLY need is an up to
date Tsar Saltan - I cannot believe this wonderful opera has not been
recorded in modern sound!!!! Richard
> >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jun 04, 2007 Posts: 52
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 16, 12:01?am, "Stephen Jay-Taylor" <sjaytay....DeleteThis@btinternet.com>
wrote:
> "I am just glad Philips pulled the plug on this project"
>
> Cheer up ! They do still have a "Snegourovtcha" in the can unissued...
>
> SJT
I don't see that as any reason for cheering up but thanks anyway.
If he has half the grasp of Stoyan Angelov on Capriccio with Elena
Zemenkova (Snow Maiden) and Alexandria Milcheva (Spring Fairy) it
should be worth the wait.
Or not, as the case may be.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jun 04, 2007 Posts: 52
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 15, 11:14?pm, "Richard Loeb" <loeb... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
> <alanwatkin... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1184536313.643840.110960@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 15, 4:52?am, "Stephen Jay-Taylor" <sjaytay... DeleteThis @btinternet.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Well, I did warn you. When they played the nothing staging in Cardiff
> >> last
> >> year it was met with a universal critical drubbing, much of it focussed
> >> on
> >> Tsypin's piss-poor set(s), but plenty aimed and Gergiev and the orchestra
> >> as
> >> well.
>
> >> Doesn't seem that things have perked up much in the trot across the
> >> Atlantic..
>
> >> SJT. who nevertheless expects nothing any better this Autumn out of
> >> Covent
> >> Garden's cluttered chaos of both staging and conducting/playing, alas...
>
> > I obviously cannot comment on the Wagner performance because I was not
> > there
> > and have not heard it but I can offer an opinion on his Philips
> > recordings
> > of the operas of Rimsky-Korsakov which are, in almost most respects, a
> > complete
> > travesty of the composer and who with the centenary of his death
> > coming up
> > next year desperately needs an international advocate. So far as I
> > know as I
> > know there is not one in sight and Gergiev certainly is not the one.
>
> > How I envy the Z-man with his Mr Conlon! Instead, Rimsky-Korsakov has
> > the
> > hapless Fedoseyev occasionally performing and cutting huge chunks out
> > of most
> > of it (his classic is Kitezh where he cuts a couple of cameos early on
> > and
> > then puts them back in later, entirely unexplained but a masterstroke
> > if you
> > like that sort of thing).
>
> > Rimsky and Wagner do actually have things in common, or so I think.
> > They
> > are more tableaux for a start and more 50-50 opera and orchestra than
> > some
> > works. If Mr Gergiev failed to understand that in Wagner it might
> > explain why he
> > failed to understand it as you thought and why I think it so in
> > Rimsky-Korsakov.
>
> > It might be argued that if you don't get the first five minutes of
> > Das
> > Rheingold "right" you might affect the rest of it. So it is with a
> > Kitezh,
> > another scene setter, and he certainly completely misreads that. For
> > that matter
> > it could be said of Sadko. Tableaux II is set by a lake (not there's
> > a
> > thing). Three white swans (swans?, now there's another thing) swim
> > towards Sadko
> > and...errr....transform themselves into maidens, now there's another
> > thing.
> > And in that process some of the many astute listeners on this group
> > may note
> > in the string and harp writing that, for some curious reason, they are
> > not
> > a million miles away from Gotterdammerung. Confusing isn't it?
>
> > Not with Gergiev it isn't because on Philips he manages to miss nearly
> > all
> > of this stuff spectacularly.
>
> > Try the opening of the Second Tableaux folks. Where the hell does that
> > come
> > from? Play spot the Wagner if you wish.
>
> > If you wish to play spot the Wagner in either forget Gergiev.
>
> > If, as seems doubtful, anyone wishes to explore spot the Wagner, or
> > even
> > Rimsky-Korsakov, they are directed to:
>
> > Kitezh: MVTCD 063065
> > Sadko: Preiser 90655 or MVTCD 009011
>
> > As a bonus in both cases there were access to the master tapes and
> > corrections of pitches in all previous issues. Quite how Preiser came
> > across the
> > master tapes of Sadko is a matter of some speculation elsewhere (some
> > have
> > suggested that money changed hands) but master tapes both are.
>
> > And both a different take from Mr Gergiev or so I think.
>
> > Personally, I am just glad Philips pulled the plug on this project
> > before he
> > got to Christmas Eve.
>
> > Kind regards,
> > Alan M. Watkins
>
> I agree - I find Gergiev rather ordinary in these magical works and I always
> go back to those 1950s recordings to hear the real spark - I was really
> surprised and happy to hear that Preiser has issued the great Sadko in
> improved sound - that whole set is worth the scene with the three guests
> where Reizen, Lisitsian and Kozlovsky stand up and sit down after giving
> free singing lessons to the listeners!!! What we REALLY need is an up to
> date Tsar Saltan - I cannot believe this wonderful opera has not been
> recorded in modern sound!!!! Richard
>
Not modern sound but improved sound, hopefully. Nebolssin's recording
for Melodiya (1955) is being remastered and will be issued in due
course.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins >> Stay informed about: Ring Rang Rung - xpost |
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Since: Jul 09, 2005 Posts: 1844
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Ring Rang Rung - xpost [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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