Del Monaco's Celeste Aida

wrote in message n pieces of singing from a major
artist.ews:1175934571.758547.192560@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Has anyone seen this on youtube? It's embarassingly bad. No line.
> Everything chopped up. Phrases cut short. He had real problems with
> the passagio notes I think. Can't sustain an F. The Bbs are good
> though, but so what? One swallow doth not a summer make. And loud loud
> loud. A crass, amateurish performance.
>
> Ben
>
His studio recording in the complete Decca Aida from 1952 is one of the
worst recorded arias by a major artist. Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

On Apr 7, 12:47 pm, "CHSIII" wrote:
> The amateurish opinion proffered here, makes no mention of the context of
> this performance - late, possibly Del Monaco' last Radames, in 1961 - in the
> midst of a very taxing Japanese tour, including Chenier, Pagliacci and
> concerts, and after earlier (May and July) recording two of his best, the
> Karajan Otello and the Capuana Adriana - also after countless Otellos, and
> in the 21st year of a career that was to last another 10 years give or take.
> Del Monaco was 46. Here, by the way, is his schedule for that October:
>
> 9/28 - Andrea
> 10/1 - Andrea
> 10/5 - Andrea
> 10/13 - Radames
> 10/16 - Radames
> 10/18 - Radames
> 10/21 - Canio
> 10/23 - Canio
> 10/25 - Canio
> 10/28 - Andrea
> 10/30 - Canio
> 11/2 - Radames
>
> Yes - this particular "Celeste Aida" is not a performance for the ages, but
> it is also not a performance on which to sum up a great voice in the
> precious ("one swallow doth not a summer make" - pleeeeease - Aristotle
> would be so irritated with that "doth"!) manner attemptedeth by this writer.
> The fact is, that maybe Del Monaco just wasn't adequately warmed up that
> evening, and thought he could get away with something before his adoring
> Japanese fans - which he certainly did. Also, he has some hot-blooded
> moments in the rest of the opera (especially with Simionato), as well as
> during that same tour turning in a fabulous Chenier with Tebaldi, and a
> thrilling Canio with Tucci. But under any circumstance, to refer to a Mario
> Del Monaco performance as "crass and amateurish" is absurd. And
> "embarassingly (sic) bad"? Who there in the theatre seems to be
> embarrassed? (And I am certainly not embarrassed in watching the video of
> Del Monaco, unlike the cringing embarrassment I felt every time I heard a
> certain now venerated tenor at the Met attempt to just make it through this
> most challenging of evening-opening arias, without more than two or three
> cracked notes - not to mention the torture of trying to listen to him in the
> final duet.) The writer should be embarrassed to make such juvenile
> comments, and to write as if everyone here were not already aware of this
> performance, its shortcomings, and the context in the career of one of the
> 20th century's greatest vocalists.
>
> wrote in message
>
>
>
>
>
> > Has anyone seen this on youtube? It's embarassingly bad. No line.
> > Everything chopped up. Phrases cut short. He had real problems with
> > the passagio notes I think. Can't sustain an F. The Bbs are good
> > though, but so what? One swallow doth not a summer make. And loud loud
> > loud. A crass, amateurish performance.
>
> > Ben- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I get sick of all these posts criticizing a great artist like
DelMonaco. Who did not have their bad moments? The reality is that we
have had a slew of mediocre/average tenors at best and that includes
the 3 pretenders over the past 35+years. WHo strains more at the top
than Domingo??? Carreras was the best of the 3 in his prime but got
sick and sang roles too heavy for his voice and the third I refuse to
waste comment on. I would give anything to have not only a DelMonaco
today but singers like Barioni and Labo .
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

"premiereopera@aol.com" wrote in message

> On Apr 7, 11:41 am, "Richard Loeb" wrote:
>> wrote in message n pieces of singing from a major
>>
>> artist.ews:1175934571.758547.192...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...> Has
>> anyone seen this on youtube? It's embarassingly bad. No line.
>> > Everything chopped up. Phrases cut short. He had real problems with
>> > the passagio notes I think. Can't sustain an F. The Bbs are good
>> > though, but so what? One swallow doth not a summer make. And loud loud
>> > loud. A crass, amateurish performance.
>>
>> > Ben
>>
>> His studio recording in the complete Decca Aida from 1952 is one of the
>> worst recorded arias by a major artist. Richard
>
> Gee, I think he's great. Del Monaco was one of the very best Samsons I
> ever heard. Yes, the French is not great, but the sweep he gives to
> the music, and the acting (he was a good actor) and those clarion top
> notes were really thrilling.
>
> Is there some reason why we seem to be attacking the greats from the
> past in this fashion. I am a bit surprised.
>
> I will be out the rest of the day, so any less than friendly posts to
> me from ljo will go unread and unanswered until at least tomorrow. So
> have a ball, ljo, as you already mentioned me in a post this morning.
> BTW, please tell the list how many times you have heard Domingo live,
> and in what and when??? Thanks.
>
> Ed
>

In the right repertory del Monaco could be great - his live Otellos are
thilling but I'm sorry the greats are not that great all the time and his
studio Radames is awful. Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

On 7 Apr, 16:57, "CHSIII" wrote:
> Not a question of not seeing faults - but not letting faults get in the way,
> when the whole is greater than the parts. Wholeness, harmony, radiance...
>
> I don't know about "the mature thing" - some artists simply do IT, whether
> they do everything right or not.
>
> My primary objection here, anyhow, was the choice of adjectives - and the
> silly attitude.

With the poster you're addressing, silly attitude and what goes with
it are 'givens'.

Best,
LT



> "Richard Loeb" wrote in message
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote in message
> >
> >> On Apr 7, 12:47 pm, "CHSIII" wrote:
> >>> The amateurish opinion proffered here, makes no mention of the context
> >>> of
> >>> this performance - late, possibly Del Monaco' last Radames, in 1961 - in
> >>> the
> >>> midst of a very taxing Japanese tour, including Chenier, Pagliacci and
> >>> concerts, and after earlier (May and July) recording two of his best,
> >>> the
> >>> Karajan Otello and the Capuana Adriana - also after countless Otellos,
> >>> and
> >>> in the 21st year of a career that was to last another 10 years give or
> >>> take.
> >>> Del Monaco was 46. Here, by the way, is his schedule for that October:
>
> >>> 9/28 - Andrea
> >>> 10/1 - Andrea
> >>> 10/5 - Andrea
> >>> 10/13 - Radames
> >>> 10/16 - Radames
> >>> 10/18 - Radames
> >>> 10/21 - Canio
> >>> 10/23 - Canio
> >>> 10/25 - Canio
> >>> 10/28 - Andrea
> >>> 10/30 - Canio
> >>> 11/2 - Radames
>
> >>> Yes - this particular "Celeste Aida" is not a performance for the ages,
> >>> but
> >>> it is also not a performance on which to sum up a great voice in the
> >>> precious ("one swallow doth not a summer make" - pleeeeease - Aristotle
> >>> would be so irritated with that "doth"!) manner attemptedeth by this
> >>> writer.
> >>> The fact is, that maybe Del Monaco just wasn't adequately warmed up that
> >>> evening, and thought he could get away with something before his adoring
> >>> Japanese fans - which he certainly did. Also, he has some hot-blooded
> >>> moments in the rest of the opera (especially with Simionato), as well as
> >>> during that same tour turning in a fabulous Chenier with Tebaldi, and a
> >>> thrilling Canio with Tucci. But under any circumstance, to refer to a
> >>> Mario
> >>> Del Monaco performance as "crass and amateurish" is absurd. And
> >>> "embarassingly (sic) bad"? Who there in the theatre seems to be
> >>> embarrassed? (And I am certainly not embarrassed in watching the video
> >>> of
> >>> Del Monaco, unlike the cringing embarrassment I felt every time I heard
> >>> a
> >>> certain now venerated tenor at the Met attempt to just make it through
> >>> this
> >>> most challenging of evening-opening arias, without more than two or
> >>> three
> >>> cracked notes - not to mention the torture of trying to listen to him in
> >>> the
> >>> final duet.) The writer should be embarrassed to make such juvenile
> >>> comments, and to write as if everyone here were not already aware of
> >>> this
> >>> performance, its shortcomings, and the context in the career of one of
> >>> the
> >>> 20th century's greatest vocalists.
>
> >>> wrote in message
>
> >>>
>
> >>> > Has anyone seen this on youtube? It's embarassingly bad. No line.
> >>> > Everything chopped up. Phrases cut short. He had real problems with
> >>> > the passagio notes I think. Can't sustain an F. The Bbs are good
> >>> > though, but so what? One swallow doth not a summer make. And loud loud
> >>> > loud. A crass, amateurish performance.
>
> >>> > Ben- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> I get sick of all these posts criticizing a great artist like
> >> DelMonaco. Who did not have their bad moments? The reality is that we
> >> have had a slew of mediocre/average tenors at best and that includes
> >> the 3 pretenders over the past 35+years. WHo strains more at the top
> >> than Domingo??? Carreras was the best of the 3 in his prime but got
> >> sick and sang roles too heavy for his voice and the third I refuse to
> >> waste comment on. I would give anything to have not only a DelMonaco
> >> today but singers like Barioni and Labo .
>
> > The fact that he was the greatest "tenore di forza" of his generation (
> > and would be the only one of ours) does not mean that he or any other
> > great artists of the present or past cannot be faulted - Melchior was
> > criticized for being sloppy about note values, Flagstad for being placid
> > temperamentally, Callas for any number of reasons, Ponselle for the Carmen
> > misfire and the list goes on and on. This doesn't mean that they were not
> > great opera singers and frankly I just don't understand the mindset that
> > comes up with the idea that they can do no wrong. Del Monaco was a
> > wonderful Otello but a lousy Don Jose for a lot of reasons, technical,
> > linguistic and stylistic - that's just the way it is and I really don't
> > see the problem with expressing an opinion like that. Isn't the mature
> > thing to appreciate the artists for the qualities that make then great
> > while accepting their faults as well??? Richard- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

wrote in message

> On Apr 7, 12:47 pm, "CHSIII" wrote:
>> The amateurish opinion proffered here, makes no mention of the context of
>> this performance - late, possibly Del Monaco' last Radames, in 1961 - in
>> the
>> midst of a very taxing Japanese tour, including Chenier, Pagliacci and
>> concerts, and after earlier (May and July) recording two of his best, the
>> Karajan Otello and the Capuana Adriana - also after countless Otellos,
>> and
>> in the 21st year of a career that was to last another 10 years give or
>> take.
>> Del Monaco was 46. Here, by the way, is his schedule for that October:
>>
>> 9/28 - Andrea
>> 10/1 - Andrea
>> 10/5 - Andrea
>> 10/13 - Radames
>> 10/16 - Radames
>> 10/18 - Radames
>> 10/21 - Canio
>> 10/23 - Canio
>> 10/25 - Canio
>> 10/28 - Andrea
>> 10/30 - Canio
>> 11/2 - Radames
>>
>> Yes - this particular "Celeste Aida" is not a performance for the ages,
>> but
>> it is also not a performance on which to sum up a great voice in the
>> precious ("one swallow doth not a summer make" - pleeeeease - Aristotle
>> would be so irritated with that "doth"!) manner attemptedeth by this
>> writer.
>> The fact is, that maybe Del Monaco just wasn't adequately warmed up that
>> evening, and thought he could get away with something before his adoring
>> Japanese fans - which he certainly did. Also, he has some hot-blooded
>> moments in the rest of the opera (especially with Simionato), as well as
>> during that same tour turning in a fabulous Chenier with Tebaldi, and a
>> thrilling Canio with Tucci. But under any circumstance, to refer to a
>> Mario
>> Del Monaco performance as "crass and amateurish" is absurd. And
>> "embarassingly (sic) bad"? Who there in the theatre seems to be
>> embarrassed? (And I am certainly not embarrassed in watching the video
>> of
>> Del Monaco, unlike the cringing embarrassment I felt every time I heard a
>> certain now venerated tenor at the Met attempt to just make it through
>> this
>> most challenging of evening-opening arias, without more than two or three
>> cracked notes - not to mention the torture of trying to listen to him in
>> the
>> final duet.) The writer should be embarrassed to make such juvenile
>> comments, and to write as if everyone here were not already aware of this
>> performance, its shortcomings, and the context in the career of one of
>> the
>> 20th century's greatest vocalists.
>>
>> wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Has anyone seen this on youtube? It's embarassingly bad. No line.
>> > Everything chopped up. Phrases cut short. He had real problems with
>> > the passagio notes I think. Can't sustain an F. The Bbs are good
>> > though, but so what? One swallow doth not a summer make. And loud loud
>> > loud. A crass, amateurish performance.
>>
>> > Ben- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
> I get sick of all these posts criticizing a great artist like
> DelMonaco. Who did not have their bad moments? The reality is that we
> have had a slew of mediocre/average tenors at best and that includes
> the 3 pretenders over the past 35+years. WHo strains more at the top
> than Domingo??? Carreras was the best of the 3 in his prime but got
> sick and sang roles too heavy for his voice and the third I refuse to
> waste comment on. I would give anything to have not only a DelMonaco
> today but singers like Barioni and Labo .
>

The fact that he was the greatest "tenore di forza" of his generation ( and
would be the only one of ours) does not mean that he or any other great
artists of the present or past cannot be faulted - Melchior was criticized
for being sloppy about note values, Flagstad for being placid
temperamentally, Callas for any number of reasons, Ponselle for the Carmen
misfire and the list goes on and on. This doesn't mean that they were not
great opera singers and frankly I just don't understand the mindset that
comes up with the idea that they can do no wrong. Del Monaco was a wonderful
Otello but a lousy Don Jose for a lot of reasons, technical, linguistic and
stylistic - that's just the way it is and I really don't see the problem
with expressing an opinion like that. Isn't the mature thing to appreciate
the artists for the qualities that make then great while accepting their
faults as well??? Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

The amateurish opinion proffered here, makes no mention of the context of
this performance - late, possibly Del Monaco' last Radames, in 1961 - in the
midst of a very taxing Japanese tour, including Chenier, Pagliacci and
concerts, and after earlier (May and July) recording two of his best, the
Karajan Otello and the Capuana Adriana - also after countless Otellos, and
in the 21st year of a career that was to last another 10 years give or take.
Del Monaco was 46. Here, by the way, is his schedule for that October:

9/28 - Andrea
10/1 - Andrea
10/5 - Andrea
10/13 - Radames
10/16 - Radames
10/18 - Radames
10/21 - Canio
10/23 - Canio
10/25 - Canio
10/28 - Andrea
10/30 - Canio
11/2 - Radames

Yes - this particular "Celeste Aida" is not a performance for the ages, but
it is also not a performance on which to sum up a great voice in the
precious ("one swallow doth not a summer make" - pleeeeease - Aristotle
would be so irritated with that "doth"!) manner attemptedeth by this writer.
The fact is, that maybe Del Monaco just wasn't adequately warmed up that
evening, and thought he could get away with something before his adoring
Japanese fans - which he certainly did. Also, he has some hot-blooded
moments in the rest of the opera (especially with Simionato), as well as
during that same tour turning in a fabulous Chenier with Tebaldi, and a
thrilling Canio with Tucci. But under any circumstance, to refer to a Mario
Del Monaco performance as "crass and amateurish" is absurd. And
"embarassingly (sic) bad"? Who there in the theatre seems to be
embarrassed? (And I am certainly not embarrassed in watching the video of
Del Monaco, unlike the cringing embarrassment I felt every time I heard a
certain now venerated tenor at the Met attempt to just make it through this
most challenging of evening-opening arias, without more than two or three
cracked notes - not to mention the torture of trying to listen to him in the
final duet.) The writer should be embarrassed to make such juvenile
comments, and to write as if everyone here were not already aware of this
performance, its shortcomings, and the context in the career of one of the
20th century's greatest vocalists.


wrote in message

> Has anyone seen this on youtube? It's embarassingly bad. No line.
> Everything chopped up. Phrases cut short. He had real problems with
> the passagio notes I think. Can't sustain an F. The Bbs are good
> though, but so what? One swallow doth not a summer make. And loud loud
> loud. A crass, amateurish performance.
>
> Ben
>
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

You could hear him in the final duet?


"CHSIII" wrote in message

unlike the cringing embarrassment I felt every time I heard a
> certain now venerated tenor at the Met attempt to just make it through
> this most challenging of evening-opening arias, without more than two or
> three cracked notes - not to mention the torture of trying to listen to
> him in the final duet.) >
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

Not a question of not seeing faults - but not letting faults get in the way,
when the whole is greater than the parts. Wholeness, harmony, radiance...

I don't know about "the mature thing" - some artists simply do IT, whether
they do everything right or not.

My primary objection here, anyhow, was the choice of adjectives - and the
silly attitude.




"Richard Loeb" wrote in message

> wrote in message
>
>> On Apr 7, 12:47 pm, "CHSIII" wrote:
>>> The amateurish opinion proffered here, makes no mention of the context
>>> of
>>> this performance - late, possibly Del Monaco' last Radames, in 1961 - in
>>> the
>>> midst of a very taxing Japanese tour, including Chenier, Pagliacci and
>>> concerts, and after earlier (May and July) recording two of his best,
>>> the
>>> Karajan Otello and the Capuana Adriana - also after countless Otellos,
>>> and
>>> in the 21st year of a career that was to last another 10 years give or
>>> take.
>>> Del Monaco was 46. Here, by the way, is his schedule for that October:
>>>
>>> 9/28 - Andrea
>>> 10/1 - Andrea
>>> 10/5 - Andrea
>>> 10/13 - Radames
>>> 10/16 - Radames
>>> 10/18 - Radames
>>> 10/21 - Canio
>>> 10/23 - Canio
>>> 10/25 - Canio
>>> 10/28 - Andrea
>>> 10/30 - Canio
>>> 11/2 - Radames
>>>
>>> Yes - this particular "Celeste Aida" is not a performance for the ages,
>>> but
>>> it is also not a performance on which to sum up a great voice in the
>>> precious ("one swallow doth not a summer make" - pleeeeease - Aristotle
>>> would be so irritated with that "doth"!) manner attemptedeth by this
>>> writer.
>>> The fact is, that maybe Del Monaco just wasn't adequately warmed up that
>>> evening, and thought he could get away with something before his adoring
>>> Japanese fans - which he certainly did. Also, he has some hot-blooded
>>> moments in the rest of the opera (especially with Simionato), as well as
>>> during that same tour turning in a fabulous Chenier with Tebaldi, and a
>>> thrilling Canio with Tucci. But under any circumstance, to refer to a
>>> Mario
>>> Del Monaco performance as "crass and amateurish" is absurd. And
>>> "embarassingly (sic) bad"? Who there in the theatre seems to be
>>> embarrassed? (And I am certainly not embarrassed in watching the video
>>> of
>>> Del Monaco, unlike the cringing embarrassment I felt every time I heard
>>> a
>>> certain now venerated tenor at the Met attempt to just make it through
>>> this
>>> most challenging of evening-opening arias, without more than two or
>>> three
>>> cracked notes - not to mention the torture of trying to listen to him in
>>> the
>>> final duet.) The writer should be embarrassed to make such juvenile
>>> comments, and to write as if everyone here were not already aware of
>>> this
>>> performance, its shortcomings, and the context in the career of one of
>>> the
>>> 20th century's greatest vocalists.
>>>
>>> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Has anyone seen this on youtube? It's embarassingly bad. No line.
>>> > Everything chopped up. Phrases cut short. He had real problems with
>>> > the passagio notes I think. Can't sustain an F. The Bbs are good
>>> > though, but so what? One swallow doth not a summer make. And loud loud
>>> > loud. A crass, amateurish performance.
>>>
>>> > Ben- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>
>> I get sick of all these posts criticizing a great artist like
>> DelMonaco. Who did not have their bad moments? The reality is that we
>> have had a slew of mediocre/average tenors at best and that includes
>> the 3 pretenders over the past 35+years. WHo strains more at the top
>> than Domingo??? Carreras was the best of the 3 in his prime but got
>> sick and sang roles too heavy for his voice and the third I refuse to
>> waste comment on. I would give anything to have not only a DelMonaco
>> today but singers like Barioni and Labo .
>>
>
> The fact that he was the greatest "tenore di forza" of his generation (
> and would be the only one of ours) does not mean that he or any other
> great artists of the present or past cannot be faulted - Melchior was
> criticized for being sloppy about note values, Flagstad for being placid
> temperamentally, Callas for any number of reasons, Ponselle for the Carmen
> misfire and the list goes on and on. This doesn't mean that they were not
> great opera singers and frankly I just don't understand the mindset that
> comes up with the idea that they can do no wrong. Del Monaco was a
> wonderful Otello but a lousy Don Jose for a lot of reasons, technical,
> linguistic and stylistic - that's just the way it is and I really don't
> see the problem with expressing an opinion like that. Isn't the mature
> thing to appreciate the artists for the qualities that make then great
> while accepting their faults as well??? Richard
>
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

On Apr 7, 11:55 am, "premiereop...@aol.com" wrote:

> Is there some reason why we seem to be attacking the greats from the
> past in this fashion. I am a bit surprised.

In the case of "Ben", it's called trolling, and you never fail to rise
to the bait.

Bill
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

On Apr 8, 11:52 am, "wkasimer" wrote:
> On Apr 7, 11:55 am, "premiereop...@aol.com" wrote:
>
> > Is there some reason why we seem to be attacking the greats from the
> > past in this fashion. I am a bit surprised.
>
> In the case of "Ben", it's called trolling, and you never fail to rise
> to the bait.
>
> Bill

Then why don't you address Ben publically, instead of me? It's just an
old habit of yours, Bill. Hard to break, I guess. I thought I was non-
habit forming.

Ed
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

On Apr 8, 12:37 pm, "premiereop...@aol.com" wrote:

>>In the case of "Ben", it's called trolling, and you never fail to >>rise to the bait.

> Then why don't you address Ben publically, instead of me?

Because I understand the nature of trolling. You, apparently, are
clueless.

No surprise.

Bill
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

....
> You could hear him in the final duet?
>
Only the splinters.
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida 

On 8 Apr, 17:27, "wkasimer" wrote:
> On Apr 8, 12:37 pm, "premiereop...@aol.com" wrote:
>
> >>In the case of "Ben", it's called trolling, and you never fail to >>rise to the bait.
> > Then why don't you address Ben publically, instead of me?
>
> Because I understand the nature of trolling.

In other words, self-understanding.


> No surprise.

Right.
 >> Stay informed about: Del Monaco's Celeste Aida